my point that it's too little too late* Archived Message Posted by Sounder on June 7, 2022, 11:49:00, in reply to "and your point?*" Previous Message Previous Message Previous Message in order to achieve what they did. It could take us 80, or 120, but we could do it. Previous Message We have 70 years of post WWII development to undo. How are you going to put that genie back in the bottle? Most places barely have any public transit at all. How do you account for that? Previous Message Previous Message you can force people out of their cars by making it really difficult to park and drive, but it's not going to make their lives better, and they will resent you for it. Previous Message walkable, bikable, public transitable solutions. Previous Message Previous Message Exceptions would be any restaurant within a quarter mile of an on/off ramp. No reason for the McDonald's at Damen & Chicago or Logan & Milwaukee to have a drive thru. Related, it should be illegal for drive thru lines to spill out onto public roads. Message Thread: | This response ↓ Snapper's Urban design idea of the day: no drive thrus in urban areas. - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 7:04:43 Snapper on a first date - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:36:19 ####ing hate how car centric the US is* - ECEIllinois June 7, 2022, 12:35:11 Chapel Hill doesn't allow drive throughs* - opey8 June 7, 2022, 9:43:21 What are the boundaries for them? - TarheelIllini June 7, 2022, 12:05:06 Neither does San Luis Obispo. * - haighter June 7, 2022, 9:47:45 because that place is magical* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:48:58 sdie jack: I made Santa Maria style tri tip last night - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:00:21 No reason? Isn't difficulty of parking a pretty good reason?* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 9:36:53 you are *this* close... the idea is that urban areas stop catering to cars, and focus on - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:39:10 For the tenth time, we are a car dependent society - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:38:41 yeah, the people in the netherlands are ####ing miserable* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:41:04 You act as if you can just magically snap your fingers and make the US like Holland - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:43:59 Does Sounder think Holland = Netherlands?* - complainant June 7, 2022, 12:38:42 Holland is a subregion of the Netherlands - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:46:03 I'll get over it. Let's return to discussing how you think everyone is like you. - complainant June 7, 2022, 13:02:14 Are you looking for me to defend Millennials here?* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:46:06 Millennials are definitely known as the generation to not care about the environment.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:48:01 I'm not saying Millennials don't care about the environment - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:54:33 Directed more at compy than at you. This isn't a good argument though. It can't be - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:58:57 I mostly hate the term virtue signalling, but millennials do a metric ton of it - Sounder June 7, 2022, 14:02:23 Not as horrible as driving a car each way to work, I'm sure. Being environmentally conscious - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 14:15:16 it's almost like I knew your counter. They enacted 40 years of public policy change - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:45:06 Using what legal approach? - uofi1998 June 7, 2022, 13:26:23 I don't understand the question. I want people to vote for public policies - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:32:54 How are local govts. going to force policy change to reverse nearly 100 years of urban sprawl... - uofi1998 June 7, 2022, 13:44:50 I don't see it that way at all. Why would people be forced from their properties?* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:48:56 I'm completely fine with that, but it won't change anything in my lifetime* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:47:18 Also, I choose to live in a city that is trying to do the things you want to see - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:48:43 Because it is full of half measures* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:50:08 half measures that have cost billiions and are billions over budget - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:55:16 It's like trying to lose weight and going to the gym and trying hard but not changing your diet. - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:17:20 So what is your realistic solution?* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:20:09 I can't speak to Seattle specifically, but generally: - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:28:06 Seattle is literally doing some version of all of those things - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:54:27 it's telling that some of those "comments" on quora says "shows promise" "good idea" etc. - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:59:22 Believe me, everyone in Seattle wants to live in your utopian vision - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:29:29 You don't want to hear this, but support of public transportation also means utilizing it. - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:36:07 I literally laughed out loud at the idea that taking Seattle public transit - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:41:20 An adult fare on King County metro is $2.75. And that credits to the Link light rail fare ($2.50) - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 13:48:35 $11 to take transit vs. $15 to drive and park isn't a difficult decision* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 14:09:33 $5 for a Zpack and penicillin* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 13:49:40 Build housing, build housing, build housing as well* - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 12:44:46 and your point?* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:48:09 my point that it's too little too late* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:49:00 ....for you* - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 12:51:46 this is the solipsism that needs to be overcome, yes - Sammich June 7, 2022, 11:56:55 Again, I voted for all of the projects that I am currently complaining about - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:01:21 that's good - Sammich June 7, 2022, 12:05:50 There are several problems with the Seattle Transit sytem - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:09:20 I remember it being a subplot in "Singles"* - Sammich June 7, 2022, 12:15:11 Exactly. That was 30 years ago. - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:19:26 you also said that you COULD use light rail, but don't* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:04:19 I've used it a few times. - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:06:25 I fundamentally disagree with that. Well, the too late part. It is definitely too little* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:50:24 Here's a sampling of what people think of light rail in Seattle - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:54:13 Frequency is the key. I'm glad you identified that as a problem.* - complainant June 7, 2022, 14:21:48 Also I take the bigbop position on policing the riders. - complainant June 7, 2022, 14:24:11 And you do realize that any comment forum (whether online or a public comment) - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 12:53:29 For sure, but it doesn't make it less funny or less true* - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:55:02 it shakes a lot?* - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 12:52:23 You have to admit Wallingford got f*cked hard in the light rail plan - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:55:57 It shakes a lot? Wallingford did get fucked, I will admit. On a personal level - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 13:01:23 Yeah, in addition to the light rail not serving us - Sounder June 7, 2022, 13:30:37 Amsterdam in 1970: - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:43:43 Great, they have a 50 year start on us to fix the problem - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:46:48 becuase it is designed around cars.... instead of elevating a train, just place light rail - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:49:36 Seattle built a tunnel and a light rail - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:51:28 that tunnel was a terrible idea* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:55:09 Agree to disagree - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:56:08 remember when the world's largest bore (not you, hey yo!) got stuck and they had to - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 11:57:28 The expense was acknowledged and expected - Sounder June 7, 2022, 11:59:06 Before the pandemic struck the new light rail segment was getting more use than expected - IlliniRunner June 7, 2022, 13:00:45 again, maybe they need to be better designed. It's not the light rail, it's the implementation* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:01:56 They aren't failing because they are incompetent - Sounder June 7, 2022, 12:09:59 It's mostly the uncomfortable wooden shoes. - KingTalkyTiki June 7, 2022, 11:42:28 My moonshot design idea: Make underneath the EL a covered bikeway everywhere* - Chilango June 7, 2022, 9:31:09 that would concentrate public transit along the same lines. Would rather have boulevards turn to - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:42:55 I think that makes more sense. - Chilango June 7, 2022, 12:14:01 ooo - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 9:39:54 my moonshot idea- shutter the EL. - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:36:38 Yeah, that's a MARS shot. - Chilango June 7, 2022, 12:14:30 the El is good. Just need light rail or real dedicated bus lanes to connect as a circle line.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:41:57 Just have buses stop less often and always stop after a light/stop sign - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 9:44:17 100% agree with the less stops and location.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:47:38 ooo - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:49:34 ooo - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:52:26 This was my number one fixable chicago transit issue five years ago - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 9:47:21 Now, it would be 1) increasing the number of e-bikes and lowering the price with 2) increasing - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 9:53:49 that ####ing parking deal pisses me off more and more everyday.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:57:37 there should be stops at every "200." 800N, 1000N, 1200N, etc.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:51:37 Odd and Even buses.... Norton, you're a genius!! * - osklister June 7, 2022, 10:02:06 We actually discussed it quite heavily here with Kimmerz (come back) and TIT (come back)* - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 9:49:03 and me, buddy* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:49:18 I was including you with the 'we'* - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 9:49:52 Plain English pod on this recently talked about how our environmental laws make this impossible - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 9:41:05 like an order of magnitude higher, iirc* - torinese June 7, 2022, 11:54:27 We just added a 1.7 mile / 3 station subway spur for the cost of about 1.6 billion dollars... - haighter June 7, 2022, 9:47:00 you also have crazy high seismic regulations* - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:50:59 Yeah, you would need 100 billion (at least) and 25 years to do this - reggiedunlop June 7, 2022, 9:43:38 It took that much just to update the People Mover at ORD* - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 9:57:07 I'l just sit back and wait for Elon to solve all the world's transportation problems* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:58:15 ugh. pass* - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 11:59:47 I agree about the spill out on to roads. - Chicago1995 June 7, 2022, 8:59:03 i don't get why people go bonkers for raising cane's * - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:07:41 The sauce is like crack - imo really good* - bulldogmba June 7, 2022, 9:27:26 looks like it's mayo-based which is usually a pass for me* - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:33:51 Starbucks is such a ####ing scam - bjl63 June 7, 2022, 9:00:55 We classify areas of town as "Urban" "Traditional" and "Suburban" - ijustkrushalot June 7, 2022, 8:42:52 Could you expand upon this or link or something? This seems pretty interesting... - haighter June 7, 2022, 9:26:56 heh.. found the boards we used for an open house when we rewrote the code - ijustkrushalot June 7, 2022, 12:10:17 Can't wait to read this* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 12:15:11 maybe has to do with mixing of zones and the utilization of feeder streets, etc. - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:35:43 wtf is "traditional"?* - VIV June 7, 2022, 9:07:07 to some degree a term of convenience, but for us: - ijustkrushalot June 7, 2022, 11:47:07 "Now leaving Traditional Chicago"...."Welcome to Suburban Chicago".... - osklister June 7, 2022, 8:57:45 Welcome to San Francisco. * - haighter June 7, 2022, 7:41:37 There is a drive thru Starbucks near me that backs up into traffic on a daily basis* - CWR10 June 7, 2022, 7:40:24 All those drivers should be executed. Ticketed, at least.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 7:50:39 All those drivers should be executed. Ticketed, at least.* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 7:50:37 Spoken like a dude with no kids* - Carl Spackler June 7, 2022, 7:31:26 This - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 8:40:24 Yeah, but how often do you do that in Lincoln Park? Wouldn't that be - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:41:51 What about Tuesday night after soccer practice? Or just a long day running errands? - Chicago1995 June 7, 2022, 8:56:54 Of course, but then just go to one of the drive thrus that's within a quarter mile of an on/off ramp - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:59:04 McDonalds at Clark and Wrightwood and Fullerton and Clybourn - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 8:53:54 Can't disagree with Clark and wrightwood having a drive more. However, Fullerton/clybourn - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:57:46 Haha that Wendy’s has the quickest drive thru ever - bigbop85 June 7, 2022, 9:24:44 the shared entrance and exit being just south of clyborn/ashland is a cluster####* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:31:01 *removes car seats to clean them...finds something growing on seats underneath** - lcubed June 7, 2022, 8:40:10 Eh…I have kids. Not having drive-throughs would make zero appreciable difference… - haighter June 7, 2022, 8:38:36 I'm certain there's a solution that would be convenient for parents* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 7:52:52 Like a drive thru?* - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 7:57:00 Terrible utilization of space and incredibly inefficient* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:03:53 how about this? - IlliniSax05 June 7, 2022, 8:10:25 Love this thing, Taco Bell rules.* - Warrin'_Illini June 7, 2022, 11:51:30 Can you send out a pen, I've got to sign the receipt.... - osklister June 7, 2022, 8:14:44 When's the last time you signed a receipt at a fast food place?* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:20:10 Good point. But what about sending out some dog biscuits? Extra lollipops for the kids in the car?? - osklister June 7, 2022, 9:00:00 That's better. The sonic model is much better than standard dive thru* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:12:43 How about this? You just drive your car close to the building, and someone hands you your order - doubledown June 7, 2022, 8:06:06 Great idea: - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:12:12 That’s the case for, what, 1% of drive-thrus? * - doubledown June 7, 2022, 8:19:44 Probably more: - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:26:25 The new Sbux in town is being built for a 19 car dedicated drive thru - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 8:46:21 That's ####ing ridiculous* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:49:21 Which part? - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 8:51:18 Well, you kind of answered with the "not walkable & no public transit" but - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 9:06:04 it is not open yet, but I will get you a picture next time I am over there - Dilbert June 7, 2022, 9:11:18 The Chik-Fil-A’s around here get crazy drive through lines like that - DT June 7, 2022, 8:15:40 The one close to me is worse - TarheelIllini June 7, 2022, 8:56:14 I love using the CFA app and either getting curbside delivery or just walk in... - shua June 7, 2022, 8:42:03 How about this, you park your car, and you either go inside or someone comes out - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:10:18 Wait, what if the employee was on roller skates? - osklister June 7, 2022, 8:16:05 Hopefully he's got nice stems* - longsnapper June 7, 2022, 8:21:06 Curbside pickup works just as well for me.* - ISeeDeadHawkeyes June 7, 2022, 7:53:55 In & Out should have to be in the middle of nowhere. They're a cancer. * - doubledown June 7, 2022, 7:27:47 a delicious cancer* - Tortillini June 7, 2022, 7:31:01 this* - bbonb June 7, 2022, 7:56:12 Middling at best. * - doubledown June 7, 2022, 7:34:44 I'm sure the lack of availability near me heightens its appeal - Tortillini June 7, 2022, 8:06:17 Mandated In & Out on every corner. Problem solved.* - ghost_of_clt June 7, 2022, 7:30:59   Searching