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Queen Elizabeth's second collet necklace worn at her coronation in 1938 Posted by Franck on April 25, 2022, 3:34 am We have been informed from Lord Twining that there were three fine diamond necklaces (one is the coronation necklace). He does write : "The second necklace originally had 87 brilliant collets ranging from 3/16 to 10 1/4 carats, but this had been reduced to 45 collets by removing 42. There is also a group of detached collets sets with brillants from which I was taken for the snap of the small necklace and 3 were used in the large necklace" There remain 154 collets." We also have been informed from Menkes that 2 diamond collet necklaces were considered as crown jewels : - A diamond collet necklace of 45 collets ; - A diamond collet necklace of 42 collets ; Leslie Field also makes a reference of a diamond collet necklace of 45 collets worn by QE. Strangely Roberts does not do any references of these diamond collet necklaces. We know that Menkes and Field made mistakes but they also made excellent analysis. Lord Twining had apparently an access to the archive at Windsor consequently we can infer that he does say the truth....and that these two necklaces do exist. Currently, we have no idea if these necklaces were worn by Queen Elizabeth II, Nevertheless, we know that Queen Elizabeth wore a diamond collet necklace which is not her own coronation necklace of the day of her coronation (The diamonds are less impressive in 1938). When we look at the jewels worn by her on her coronation we can clearly see that she wore jewels of the crown. Consequently, we can suppose that the second diamond collet necklace worn by her is a necklace from the crown and maybe one of the two collets described by Twining and Menkes (Another possibility would be the Teck collet necklace). I also raise the same question for Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary. They wore jewels of the crown for their respectives coronations. (Sadly, I can't post photos anymore). Franck

Re: Queen Elizabeth's second collet necklace worn at her coronation in 1938 Posted by Dave on April 25, 2022, 6:40 am, in reply to "Queen Elizabeth's second collet necklace worn at her coronation in 1938 " When media reports indicate that the British Queen has the largest private jewel collection,you don't have to take it with a pinch of salt now do you. Regards, Dave. Previous Message We have been informed from Lord Twining that there were three fine diamond necklaces (one is the coronation necklace). He does write : "The second necklace originally had 87 brilliant collets ranging from 3/16 to 10 1/4 carats, but this had been reduced to 45 collets by removing 42. There is also a group of detached collets sets with brillants from which I was taken for the snap of the small necklace and 3 were used in the large necklace" There remain 154 collets." We also have been informed from Menkes that 2 diamond collet necklaces were considered as crown jewels : - A diamond collet necklace of 45 collets ; - A diamond collet necklace of 42 collets ; Leslie Field also makes a reference of a diamond collet necklace of 45 collets worn by QE. Strangely Roberts does not do any references of these diamond collet necklaces. We have no idea if these necklaces were worn by Queen Elizabeth II, Nevertheless, we know that Queen Elizabeth wore a diamond collet necklace which is not her own coronation necklace of the day of her coronation (The diamonds are less impressive in 1938). When we look at the jewels worn by her on her coronation we can clearly see that she wore jewels of the crown. Consequently, we can suppose that the second diamond collet necklace worn by her is a necklace from the crown and maybe one of the two collets described by Twining and Menkes (Another possibility would be the Teck collet necklace). I also raise the same question for Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary. They wore jewels of the crown for their respectives coronations. (Sadly, I can't post photos anymore). Franck

Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces Posted by PaulP, on April 27, 2022, 1:45 am, in reply to "Queen Elizabeth's second collet necklace worn at her coronation in 1938 " Many thanks Frank. There is a bit of confusion. Please see in link below an old RJWMB post from Arthur who had used information published by Vincent Meylan who quoted from Lord Twining to produce a list of jewels designated by Queen Victoria as "Heirlooms of the Crown". Item number 7 is "154 unmounted collet diamonds". We assume these were the remains of the dismantled Queen Adelaide diamond collet necklace. Number 6 doesn't state three but only two "brilliant necklaces made of 32 and 45 collet diamonds". It was assumed that the 32 collet diamond necklace was a longer form of today's coronation diamond necklace. Arthur's list seems to be missing a necklace of 42 diamond collets. https://members2.boardhost.com/royal-jewels/msg/archive/1405776855.html

Re: Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces Posted by Franck on April 27, 2022, 2:13 am, in reply to "Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces " Dear PaulP, Thank you so much for the link ! it is very interesting. Obviously, we have at least another collet which is in the list of jewels designated by Queen Victoria as Heirlooms of the Crown (45 diamond collets). I also infer that QE might have worn this second collet necklace for her coronation if it is not the teck necklace. Franck Previous Message Many thanks Frank. There is a bit of confusion. Please see in link below an old RJWMB post from Arthur who had used information published by Vincent Meylan who quoted from Lord Twining to produce a list of jewels designated by Queen Victoria as "Heirlooms of the Crown". Item number 7 is "154 unmounted collet diamonds". We assume these were the remains of the dismantled Queen Adelaide diamond collet necklace. Number 6 doesn't state three but only two "brilliant necklaces made of 32 and 45 collet diamonds". It was assumed that the 32 collet diamond necklace was a longer form of today's coronation diamond necklace. Arthur's list seems to be missing a necklace of 42 diamond collets. https://members2.boardhost.com/royal-jewels/msg/archive/1405776855.html

Re: Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces Posted by Dave on April 27, 2022, 8:29 am, in reply to "Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces " Surely if these items were left to the Crown why then are they not exhibited at all like what the Danish Royal family does on occasion. They are being treated as private property are they not? Regards Dave. Previous Message Many thanks Frank. There is a bit of confusion. Please see in link below an old RJWMB post from Arthur who had used information published by Vincent Meylan who quoted from Lord Twining to produce a list of jewels designated by Queen Victoria as "Heirlooms of the Crown". Item number 7 is "154 unmounted collet diamonds". We assume these were the remains of the dismantled Queen Adelaide diamond collet necklace. Number 6 doesn't state three but only two "brilliant necklaces made of 32 and 45 collet diamonds". It was assumed that the 32 collet diamond necklace was a longer form of today's coronation diamond necklace. Arthur's list seems to be missing a necklace of 42 diamond collets. https://members2.boardhost.com/royal-jewels/msg/archive/1405776855.html

Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection Posted by PaulP, on April 27, 2022, 1:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Heirloom of the Crown diamond collet necklaces " Dave, I am far from being an expert, but perhaps the name "Heirloom of the crown" could be misleading. AFAIK Queen Victoria left in her will personally owned jewels labelled "Heirlooms of the crown" to be used by future UK queens, but this is a private collection. It's possible they have a status similar to the Spanish royal family's joyas de pasar or "the jewels that are passed on". Ownership wasn't bequeathed to the Crown, and they remain private and not part of the state owned public collection. Notice that Heirloom of the Crown pieces have repeatedly been worn abroad, but the state owned Coronation Regalia items cannot be taken outside the country. That's how i have understood the situation and I welcome any corrections.

Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection Posted by Beth on April 27, 2022, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection " I agree with PaulP. The items which are said to be "heirlooms of the crown" are private property. The difference between them and say Her Majesty's engagement ring as an example is that the "heirlooms of the crown" are held in trust for the use of queens. That means that a Queen who has the right to use the jewels cannot leave them to her favourite person, charity etc. None of us has ever been privy to the precise conditions under which heirlooms of the crown can be used, but the fact that George VI gave QEII the Crown pearls as a wedding gift while she was still a Princess suggests that the reigning monarch has some discretion over who can wear or use the jewels. Heirlooms of the crown are in a totally different category from the Crown Jewels/Regalia.

What Twinning had to say & some photos Posted by Beth on April 27, 2022, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection " I think it might help some if I post the relevant section from Twinning. Often if one person makes a mistake, that is faithfully repeated and entrenched. What Twinning had to say. Please note that Twinning is difficult to read and interpret. Here are some photos. The 1st two are from Franck This photo is not from Coronation Day, but later. The Festoon necklace

Re: What Twinning had to say & some photos Posted by Franck on April 27, 2022, 8:44 pm, in reply to "What Twinning had to say & some photos" Thank you so much Beth !!! Previous Message I think it might help some if I post the relevant section from Twinning. Often if one person makes a mistake, that is faithfully repeated and entrenched. What Twinning had to say. Please note that Twinning is difficult to read and interpret. Here are some photos. The 1st two are from Franck This photo is not from Coronation Day, but later. The Festoon necklace

Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection Posted by Franck on April 27, 2022, 8:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection " I also agree with Beth and PaulP. Thank you both ! Franck Previous Message I agree with PaulP. The items which are said to be "heirlooms of the crown" are private property. The difference between them and say Her Majesty's engagement ring as an example is that the "heirlooms of the crown" are held in trust for the use of queens. That means that a Queen who has the right to use the jewels cannot leave them to her favourite person, charity etc. None of us has ever been privy to the precise conditions under which heirlooms of the crown can be used, but the fact that George VI gave QEII the Crown pearls as a wedding gift while she was still a Princess suggests that the reigning monarch has some discretion over who can wear or use the jewels. Heirlooms of the crown are in a totally different category from the Crown Jewels/Regalia.

Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection Posted by Dave on April 28, 2022, 3:37 am, in reply to "Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection " Beth, something just came to me. I recall the late Danish Queen Louise who it is said left the Ruby Parure to her grandson the now Crown Prince Frederik. She did not pass it directly to her daughter Queen Margarethe. And regarding their British cousins; it is indicated that the late Queen Mary left all of her jewels to her granddaughter the present QE2, skipping the late Queen Mother. So maybe the reigning Monarch has discretion to pass on certain jewels to the next available or heir instead of the next serving monarch. Regards, Dave. Previous Message I agree with PaulP. The items which are said to be "heirlooms of the crown" are private property. The difference between them and say Her Majesty's engagement ring as an example is that the "heirlooms of the crown" are held in trust for the use of queens. That means that a Queen who has the right to use the jewels cannot leave them to her favourite person, charity etc. None of us has ever been privy to the precise conditions under which heirlooms of the crown can be used, but the fact that George VI gave QEII the Crown pearls as a wedding gift while she was still a Princess suggests that the reigning monarch has some discretion over who can wear or use the jewels. Heirlooms of the crown are in a totally different category from the Crown Jewels/Regalia.

Re: Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection Posted by Dave on April 28, 2022, 3:23 am, in reply to "Heirlooms of the Crown - Private and not a Public collection " Oh yes, thank you PaulP. I take your point, as official gifts are considered Crown property and not Heirlooms of the Crown or private property. However, the notion of housing some jewels under the Royal Collection still is misleading to some extent, for the RC is considered state owned but merely held in trust by the reigning monarch. I have never seen any of the jewels discussed here being mentioned as being under the RC so it substantiates your point that the jewels mentioned here most likely is the private holdings of the Queen. Regards, Dave. Previous Message Dave, I am far from being an expert, but perhaps the name "Heirloom of the crown" could be misleading. AFAIK Queen Victoria left in her will personally owned jewels labelled "Heirlooms of the crown" to be used by future UK queens, but this is a private collection. It's possible they have a status similar to the Spanish royal family's joyas de pasar or "the jewels that are passed on". Ownership wasn't bequeathed to the Crown, and they remain private and not part of the state owned public collection. Notice that Heirloom of the Crown pieces have repeatedly been worn abroad, but the state owned Coronation Regalia items cannot be taken outside the country. That's how i have understood the situation and I welcome any corrections.

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