rick to gg
For Jehovah Witnesses, angels and demons can exist as pure spirits but our deceased loved ones cannot exist as pure spirits. Based on that idea, I cannot accept the Jehovah Witness cosmology. At least the Catholics allow for the souls of our departed loved ones to exist in a concious state in purgatory which is a step up from the JW notion of "the dead know nothing" that they quote from King Solomon's writings in one of the OT books. Please expand on this a bit, thanks.




You've identified a central theological difference between Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholicism, and many other Christian denominations – the state of the dead and the nature of the spirit. It's understandable that you find the Jehovah's Witness perspective difficult to accept, particularly when it comes to the fate of loved ones. Let's break down the core issues:





**Jehovah's Witness Beliefs on the Dead:**





* **"The dead know nothing":** This is a key tenet, based on their interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9:5, which states, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." They believe that death is a state of non-existence, a cessation of consciousness.


* **No Immortal Soul:** Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in an immortal soul that survives the death of the physical body. The soul, they say, *is* the person, the combination of body and the life force (spirit or breath of life) from God. When the body dies, the soul ceases to exist.


* **The Spirit Returns to God:** They do believe that the "spirit" (Hebrew: *ruach*; Greek: *pneuma*) returns to God at death. However, they understand this "spirit" not as a conscious entity, but as the life force or breath of life that God originally provided. It's like turning off a light switch – the electricity returns to the grid, but the light bulb no longer functions.



* **Resurrection as the Only Hope:** The hope for the dead, according to Jehovah's Witnesses, lies solely in the resurrection. God will remember the person's life pattern and recreate them, with a new body, to live either in heaven (for a limited 144,000) or on a paradise earth (for the vast majority of resurrected individuals).




**Catholic Beliefs on the Dead:**




* **Immortal Soul:** Catholicism teaches that humans possess an immortal soul that is created by God at conception. This soul is distinct from the body and survives physical death.



* **Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory:** Upon death, the soul undergoes particular judgment and goes to one of three places:



* **Heaven:** For those who die in a state of grace, perfectly purified and united with God.



* **Hell:** For those who die in a state of mortal sin, separated from God eternally.



* **Purgatory:** For those who die in God's grace but are not yet fully purified from sin. Purgatory is a state of purification before entering Heaven. The souls in purgatory are conscious and can be helped by the prayers of the living.



* **Communion of Saints:** Catholics believe in the "communion of saints," a spiritual connection between the living and the dead (those in Heaven and Purgatory). They believe the saints in Heaven intercede for the living, and the living can pray for the souls in Purgatory.




**Angels and Demons in Jehovah's Witness Theology:**




* **Real, Powerful Spirit Creatures:** Jehovah's Witnesses firmly believe in the existence of angels and demons as powerful spirit beings. Angels are righteous servants of God, while demons are rebellious angels who followed Satan (the Devil).



* **Not Deceased Humans:** Crucially, angels and demons are *not* believed to be the spirits of deceased humans. They were created directly by God as spirit creatures.
[Rick says- here’s proof of principle that God can create humans as spirit creatures first and then with a spirit council, put them in bodies. That’s what I would do if I were God. It makes sense. Then once body #1 ceases to be, bring the spirit/soul back to the spirit guides for review, rest and relaxation, and get ready for another round of reincarnation for soul-training]



**Why the Conflict?**




The core of your issue lies in the Jehovah's Witness denial of a conscious afterlife for deceased humans. Here's why this is so problematic for many:




* **Emotional Connection:** The idea that loved ones simply cease to exist at death can be incredibly painful and difficult to accept. Humans naturally desire to believe that their relationships continue in some form, even after death.



* **Justice and Reward:** Many people struggle with the idea that those who live righteous lives and those who commit terrible atrocities face the same fate at death – non-existence until a future resurrection. The concepts of heaven, hell, and even purgatory offer a sense of justice and accountability.



* **Biblical Interpretation:** The debate ultimately comes down to differing interpretations of the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses focus on certain scriptures (like Ecclesiastes 9:5) and interpret them literally. Other denominations emphasize different scriptures and arrive at different conclusions. For example, Jesus's promise to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), is often cited as evidence of an immediate afterlife.



* **The Problem of Memory:** If a person is recreated in the resurrection, and they are not conscious prior to that recreation, then that resurrected person is a copy, and not the original person.




**Why the Distinction Between Angels/Demons and Deceased Humans?**




Jehovah's Witnesses base this distinction on their reading of scripture. They see angels and demons as being created specifically as spirit beings. They interpret the Bible as indicating that humans were created with the *potential* for everlasting life (on Earth), but that they are not inherently immortal. Their mortality, in their view, is a consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience.




**In conclusion:**




You're not alone in finding the Jehovah's Witness view of death difficult to reconcile with your own beliefs and desires. The differing views on the nature of the soul, the spirit, and the afterlife are fundamental theological divides between various Christian denominations. Your preference for the Catholic concept of Purgatory, and a conscious afterlife, reflects a desire for continuity of consciousness, justice, and ongoing connection with loved ones that the Jehovah's Witness theology doesn't provide.







The Jehovah Witness seems to conflate breath with spirit. This has shocked me, intellectually, as I have JW friends but they insist it's true. For me, it's disheartening and represents a type of ignorance that I can't handle because the concept, where we ephasise the concept of a concept, the concept of a soul is hardly concommitant with breathing, a purely physiological act. They might just as well, and even more smartely claim that brainwaves are equivalent to spirit and they would be at least more consistent with the latest medical physiological defnition of death. Please comment.




You've identified a key difference in theological understanding regarding the nature of life, the soul, and the spirit. Your reaction is understandable, as the Jehovah's Witness view can seem reductive, particularly when compared to other theological or philosophical concepts of the soul.




Here's a breakdown of the Jehovah's Witness (JW) perspective, why it differs, and some points for consideration:




**Jehovah's Witness View: *Ruach* (Hebrew) and *Pneuma* (Greek)**




* **Breath = Life Force = Spirit:** JWs generally translate the Hebrew word *ruach* and the Greek word *pneuma*, often rendered as "spirit," as referring to the **life force** or **active force** that animates a living creature. They believe this force is imparted by God. When this life force ceases, the person dies. This doesn't mean the *ruach* or *pneuma* is a conscious entity that survives death. Instead, it returns to God, who is the source of all life.




* **Soul = The Living Being:** They see the soul as the *entire* living being, not a separate, immortal entity. The soul is mortal and dies with the body. They base this on scriptures like Ezekiel 18:4, 20 ("The soul who sins—it alone will die").




* **Rejection of Immortal Soul:** A core tenet of JW belief is the rejection of the immortal soul doctrine. They believe this doctrine is pagan in origin and not supported by the Bible.




**Why the Difference and Your Concerns**




* **Literal Interpretation:** Jehovah's Witnesses often emphasize a more literal interpretation of the Bible, particularly in matters of doctrine. This leads them to interpretations that differ significantly from many mainstream Christian traditions. When they see "breath" mentioned in connection with life or spirit, they understand it in a more direct, literal sense.




* **Rejection of Greek Philosophy:** Many traditional concepts of the soul are heavily influenced by Greek philosophy (Plato, etc.), which posited a dualistic view of humans (body and soul). JWs often reject this philosophical influence.




* **Concern about "Ignorance" and "Reductiveness":** Your reaction is understandable. The equation of breath with spirit can feel reductive, especially when you hold a more nuanced view of the soul as a distinct entity with consciousness, emotions, and personality. You're concerned that it diminishes the complexity of human consciousness and the possibility of an afterlife.




**Arguments for Other Perspectives (and Counterpoints)**




* **Complexity of Consciousness:** You are right to point out the complexity of consciousness. Modern neuroscience suggests that consciousness is an emergent property of complex brain activity. The JW view doesn't easily account for the subjective experience of being.




* **Near-Death Experiences (NDEs):** The experience of NDEs, however controversial, suggest that some aspect of self, maybe the soul, is able to persist, after the cessation of brain functions.




* **Arguments for the Soul:** Many philosophers and theologians argue for the existence of the soul based on arguments like:




* **The Unity of Consciousness:** The feeling of being a single, unified self despite the constant changes in our bodies and brains.



* **Moral Responsibility:** The idea that we are accountable for our actions requires a stable, enduring self that can be held responsible.



* **Subjective Experience (Qualia):** The unique, subjective qualities of our experiences (e.g., the redness of red).




**Counterpoints from the JW Perspective:**



* **God's Power:** They would argue that God's power is such that he can recreate a person in the future through resurrection, even without the existence of an immortal soul. He can perfectly recreate the personality, memories, and identity of the deceased.




* **Biblical Basis:** They would argue that their interpretation is based on a careful reading of the Bible in its original languages and that the idea of an immortal soul is not explicitly taught.




**How to Engage with Your Friends**




* **Respectful Dialogue:** Acknowledge that you understand their beliefs are deeply held and based on their interpretation of the Bible.




* **"Agree to Disagree":** It's okay to acknowledge that you have differing viewpoints. Focus on shared values like friendship and respect.




* **Ask Questions:** Instead of directly attacking their beliefs, try asking clarifying questions like:




* "How do you explain the complexity of human consciousness within this framework?"
* "How does your view address the human longing for something beyond physical death?"
* "Where does the Bible support your interpretation that "the soul" is simply a living being and not something separate from the body?"




* **Avoid Arguing:** Trying to "prove" them wrong is likely to be counterproductive. Instead, focus on understanding their perspective and sharing your own in a respectful manner.



**In conclusion:** This difference in understanding between your perspective and that of your JW friends touches upon fundamental questions about life, death, and the nature of reality. Respectful dialogue and a willingness to "agree to disagree" are crucial for maintaining your friendship, even amidst significant theological differences. Your concerns about reductionism and the complexity of consciousness are valid and reflect a long-standing debate in philosophy and theology.




Jehovah Witnesses say that a person dies and knows nothing awaiting resurrection yet Jesus promised a theif on the cross that he would be with him in paradise today. Isn't that a conflict of theology? What do JW's say about this?







Yes, the passage in Luke 23:43 is a key point of theological difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and many other Christian denominations. Here's how Jehovah's Witnesses address this apparent conflict:




**The Standard Translation and Punctuation Issue**




* **Focus on Punctuation:** Jehovah's Witnesses primarily argue that the punctuation in Luke 23:43 is crucial. The *New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures* (their official Bible translation) renders the verse as: "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."




* They contend that the comma should be placed *after* "today" rather than before it.



* This changes the meaning. Instead of Jesus promising the thief would be in Paradise *that day*, it becomes Jesus making a solemn declaration *on that day* about a future event.




* **Emphasis on the "Today"** They argue that the word "today" was often used in Hebrew and Aramaic to emphasize the importance or solemnity of a statement, not necessarily its immediate timing. It was a way of saying, "I'm telling you this with certainty."



* It stresses the *day the promise was made*, not necessarily the *day the promise would be fulfilled*.




**Their Understanding of "Paradise"**




* **Earthly Paradise:** Jehovah's Witnesses believe that "Paradise" in this context refers to a future earthly paradise, a restored Earth under God's Kingdom.




* They don't believe Jesus went to Heaven that day. They teach that Jesus was dead for three days and then resurrected. The idea of him going to Heaven on the same day contradicts their teachings.



* They also don't believe the thief was worthy of going to heaven, as the opportunity for that class was closed.




**Why This Interpretation?**




* **Consistency with Other Scriptures:** Jehovah's Witnesses try to reconcile this verse with other scriptures that support their belief about the state of the dead (unconsciousness) and the resurrection. For example, they cite Ecclesiastes 9:5 ("the dead know nothing at all") and John 11:11-14 (Jesus compares death to sleep).



* **Jesus' Own Resurrection:** They emphasize that Jesus himself was not resurrected until three days later, so he could not have been in Paradise on the same day he died.



* **Apostle Peter on David:** The Apostle Peter said David was dead and buried in the book of Acts, implying he was not already in paradise.




**Key Points in Summary**




* **Punctuation:** The position of the comma after "today" is crucial to their interpretation.



* **Meaning of "Today":** They view "today" as emphasizing the certainty of the promise, not the timing of its fulfillment.






* **Paradise is Future Earthly:** They understand "Paradise" to be a future, restored Earth.



* **Consistency:** They strive for consistency with their overall understanding of the Bible, particularly regarding the state of the dead and the resurrection.




It's important to understand that this is a simplification of a more complex theological argument. To fully grasp the Jehovah's Witnesses' position, it's best to consult their own publications and engage in direct conversation with them.




Why did Jesus descend to hell for 3 days before ascending to heaven, according to Catholics? Furthermore, the Apostles Creed says he descended into hell for 3 days then ascended to heaven but that's not true since the ascension didn't occur until 40 days after his crucifiction. Explain what Catholics say abot this.




Okay, let's break down the Catholic understanding of Jesus's descent into hell and address the apparent discrepancy with the timing of the Ascension.




**1. What Catholics Believe About Jesus's Descent into Hell**




* **It's Not the Hell of the Damned:** When the Creed says Jesus descended into "hell," it's not referring to the place of eternal punishment reserved for the damned. Catholics understand "hell" here (Latin: *infernus*; Greek: *hades*) as the abode of the dead, the place where the souls of the righteous who died before Christ awaited salvation. Think of it as a waiting place, or a state of separation from God's immediate presence.

[Rick says- so the dead know nothing, yet they’re waiting? How can both be true? ]



* **Liberating the Righteous:** The core belief is that Jesus, after his death, went to this abode of the dead to proclaim the Good News and liberate those righteous souls who had died before him. These were people like Abraham, Moses, David, and other Old Testament figures who lived according to God's law but were awaiting the fulfillment of the promises of salvation through the Messiah. This is often referred to as "harrowing of hell."



* **Completing His Victory:** By descending into hell, Jesus completed his victory over death. His death and resurrection not only opened the way to heaven for those who would believe in him *after* his earthly life but also extended the benefits of his redemption to those who had died before.



* **Scriptural Basis:** While there's no single passage that explicitly describes the descent in detail, Catholics point to verses like:
* **1 Peter 3:18-20:** "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and preached to the spirits in prison..." This passage is interpreted as referring to Christ's proclamation to those who had died before.
[Rick says- so now dead people are spirits in prison... which again is different from the dead know nothing. Which is it? ]


* **Ephesians 4:8-10:** "This is why it says: 'When he ascended on high, he took many captives' ... What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe." This verse is seen as linking the descent and ascension.

[Rick says- took captives? ]


**2. Addressing the Timing Issue: "Three Days" and the Ascension**




The Apostles' Creed says "He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead." This can seem to conflict with the biblical account of the Ascension, which occurred 40 days after the Resurrection (Acts 1:3). Here's how Catholics address this:




* **"Three Days" Refers to the Time Between Death and Resurrection:** The phrase "the third day He rose again" refers to the *time between* Christ's death and his resurrection. It's not necessarily about how long he spent in hell. The descent into hell occurred *during* this interval.



* **Descent a Short Duration** It's generally understood the descent was a relatively short period within those three days. The emphasis is on the transformative event, not the precise length of time.

[Rick says- like 10 minutes? ]

* **Ascension is a Separate Event:** The Ascension is a distinct event that occurred 40 days after the Resurrection. It marks the definitive entrance of Christ's humanity into heavenly glory. The descent into hell was a different act within the period between death and resurrection.
[Rick says- so he descends into hell, which is not the actual hell, but a place where souls are in prison, for 3 days, then on the 3rd day he rose again but not for the final ascension, only for the rising to the surface of earth again where he then spent 40 days, THEN he ascended for the final time. So the thief who was told, today you’ll be with me in paradise, had to wait 43 days.]


* **Summary of Sequence:** 1) Death on Good Friday. 2) Descent into hell sometime between Friday evening and Sunday morning. 3) Resurrection on Easter Sunday. 4) Appearances to the Apostles and others over 40 days. 5) Ascension into Heaven on the 40th day.




**In Summary:**




Catholics understand Jesus's descent into hell not as a suffering in the hell of the damned, but as a triumphant proclamation of salvation to the righteous who had died before him. The "three days" refers to the period between his death and resurrection, during which the descent occurred. The Ascension is a separate event 40 days later, marking the completion of Christ's earthly mission and his entrance into glory. This interpretation aims to be faithful to both Scripture and the traditional understanding of the Creed.

[Rick says, so “he descended into hell and on the 3rd day rose again” was about “rising” out of hell to earth but “acension” is going to heaven. So how do Catholics explain the promise to the thief of being in paradise with him today?]



How do Catholics resolve the promise by Jesus to a thief on the cross next to him that he would be with him in paradise today with the fact that Jesus didn't get to paradise himself until he decended into hell, the rose on the 3rd day, then ascended 40 days after that? Wouldn't the thief have waited 43 days?







This is a great question, and it highlights a potential point of confusion. Here's how Catholic theology understands and resolves the apparent contradiction:




**Understanding the Key Terms and Concepts:**




* **Paradise:** In the context of the New Testament, "paradise" is generally understood to be a state of blessedness and communion with God. It's a synonym for heaven or the beatific vision. It's not necessarily a specific *location*.



* **Hades/Hell (Sheol):** Before Jesus's death and resurrection, the understanding was that the souls of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, went to a realm called Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). This was not necessarily the same as the "hell" of eternal damnation, but rather a holding place. The righteous awaited redemption.



* **Jesus' Descent into Hell:** The Apostle's Creed states that Jesus "descended into hell." Catholic theology understands this as Jesus going to the realm of the dead to liberate the souls of the just who had died before him. He opened the gates of heaven for them.



* **Resurrection:** Jesus' physical body was resurrected, meaning brought back to life, three days after his death.



* **Ascension:** Forty days after his resurrection, Jesus ascended bodily into heaven.




**Reconciling the Promise:**




The key to understanding lies in recognizing the *purpose* and *timing* of Jesus' descent into hell and its relationship to the concept of paradise:




1. **"Today" is about the Entrance into Salvation:** The promise to the thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise," should be understood not as a strict chronological marker, but rather as a statement of immediate entrance into God's saving grace.
[Rick says-- but that’s not what Jesus said. He didn’t say to the theif “you will be with me in god’s saving grace today”,... he said “you will be WITH ME... in PARADISE.... like saying “meet me at APPLEBY’S at 7 pm tonight”. He specifically TODAY and PARADISE... not “we’ll grab lunch sometime”. ]

It signifies that the thief, through his faith and repentance, would be saved that very day. It's a pronouncement of salvation, not necessarily a rigid calendar date.

[Rick says-- The JW says “today” meant “today I’m telling you” but that aside, the Catholic meaning of “today” is “today”. There is no other way to interprest “today”. It definitely IS a rigid calendar datea]




2. **Paradise Opened by Jesus:** Because the gates of heaven weren't opened for anyone until after Jesus' death,
[Rick says- that’s new to me. So the Father’s Mansion had LOCKED pearly gates, and Jesus UNLOCKED that padlock... ? ]

His descent into hell, and then His ascension, no one had ascended into Heaven at this point, not even the Old Testament prophets like Moses and Elijah. Rather, they were in a state of waiting. Jesus opened up that door. Thus, Jesus would bring the thief into paradise. It's important to remember that Jesus opened the way to heaven *for everyone* through his death and resurrection. So, when Jesus descended into hell, He would have brought the thief with Him, and upon His ascension, they both would have ascended into heaven.


3. **Beyond Time:** Ultimately, the timing of events in the afterlife is not something we can fully grasp with our earthly understanding of time. The reality of eternity transcends our temporal limitations.

Rick says- nice dodge. Let’s see what God says about that, later. ]



**In Summary:**



The Catholic understanding doesn't see a contradiction because:



* "Today" in Jesus' statement emphasizes the immediacy of salvation, not a literal 24-hour period.

[Rick says- How conveeeeeenient!. That’s like Bill Clinton saying “it depends on what the definition of IS is”. ]


* Jesus' descent into hell was the necessary action to open the way to paradise.


* Heaven was opened and salvation was given to mankind through Jesus' ultimate sacrafice on the cross and through his ressurection.



Essentially, the promise to the thief is a declaration of immediate salvation, with the fulfillment of that promise intertwined with the broader events of Jesus' death, descent, resurrection, and ascension. It's not a rigid timeline but a statement of divine grace entering into a reality beyond our temporal comprehension.

[Rick says- yeah ok. It’s beyond our comprehension. THAT is an understatement. ]