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"12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters." Posted by TW on May 16, 2025, 10:21 am Valued Poster Right now, the Democrats are a party adrift in a turbulent sea of nastiness. Not just in the rank and file, but in the party's leadership. This really only attracts fellow Trump haters who find it to be therapeutic to dog pile on Trump with those of a like mind. Unfortunately, the numbers that engage in this therapy are far short of those required to win elections. For what it is worth, I understand the hatred of Trump. There comes a point in which it is time to move from a failing strategy to a more productive strategy. For those that say the Republicans need to engage in the same types of behavior Graboyes speaks to in this piece. I say that is also true. Everyone needs to adhere to civil discourse, and the battle in the arena of ideas requires no harsh rhetorical violence. Trump and the GOP came out on top in the last election primarily because it offered ideas that the electorate found preferable to what the Democrats served up in Biden's tenure. Grayboyes covers that sentiment in the "Comments" section below the piece. Which I also suggest reading for some additional insight into this matter. I often find as much good information in the comments sections of much of what I read. Here it is: But again, the purpose of this piece was to offer unsolicited advice to those who are failing miserably at the task of persuasion. Were I to write a parallel piece about Trump and the Republicans, their answer would be, simply, "We've won everything. So, why the hell should we listen to you?" And they would have a point. Persuasive Beats Abrasive https://graboyes.substack.com/p/persuasive-beats-abrasive

The GOP may have "won everything" in the 2024 election, but not by very much Posted by Sia on May 18, 2025, 6:18 pm, in reply to ""12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters."" and certainly NOT by a "landslide" as they like to claim. At THIS point in time, I'd wager that dt would LOSE another election for POTUS --- by an actual LANDSLIDE --- given how much support he's lost in the last 4 months since he took office. He is rapidly becoming the most hated man in America, directly after his "first buddy", skum. No doubt, the DEMs did a lot of stupid crap last time out and lost the election to the worst human being imaginable and it's largely Biden's fault. Yeah, it IS his fault because he was incapable of seeing reality about himself. His family and closest supporters were lying to themselves and to him that he had another term in him. In fact, his final year was a struggle. That said, he was still a FAR FAR FAR better POTUS than dt was or every will be! Certainly a better human being on all counts too! DEMs need to start getting behind their up and comers and STOP putting forth the idea that there's only ONE "entitled" candidate to run, according to them. They need to encourage ALL TAKERS and then let the PUBLIC sort them out well ahead of time so that only the cream of the crop remain to run in the primaries. Their mistake over the last decade has been to get behind an one supposed "shoe in" who really isn't. HRC comes to mind. Kamala Harris was virtually the only realistic candidate in 2024 because BIDEN couldn't accept bowing out and letting a REAL primary happen to find the best candidate. I thought that Kamala was actually damned good at what she was forced to do in such a short time. She has many really great ideas and policies that I think that Americans might have voted for IF they'd had enough time to hear them and been able to CHOOSE who the candidate was going to be. She lost by the margins of disaffected voters who were making a stand to punish Biden AND Harris, allowing dt to scoop up their states by NOT VOTING or voting 3rd party. They wound up getting NOTHING they wanted and wasting their votes as a result as the WORST person won because of them and their fruitless protest votes. NO ONE wants to hear from the GOP what the DNC should be doing. Seriously. The GOP put forth the WORST imaginable candidate. So the GOP should STFU already! So, ultimately, even if your guy has some decent advice in his diatribe, it's NOT well received.

As I stated, it is sound advice for all politicians. No matter the party. Posted by TW on May 19, 2025, 8:51 am, in reply to "The GOP may have "won everything" in the 2024 election, but not by very much" Valued Poster We need to get some civility back into our nation. We need Congress to work together and to attempt to meet somewhere in the middle and make headway on solving or at least mitigating some national problems. Most important, we need to get our fiscal house in order. Neither party seems capable of adult behavior in that category.

Yes, we do need to do all of those things. However, I think that the advice offered was Posted by Sia on May 19, 2025, 11:26 am, in reply to "As I stated, it is sound advice for all politicians. No matter the party." ADMIN not the best idea coming from the author, former Dem voter or not. He was TOO HEAVY HANDED and went way too far with his comments, turning off those he supposedly wanted to reach.

More fake equivalency. Posted by greenman on May 19, 2025, 10:28 am, in reply to "As I stated, it is sound advice for all politicians. No matter the party." Valued Poster Tell YOUR party - whose adherents are even now cheering for Joe Biden’s death by cancer. Fair enough, I guess - eagerly anticipate Trump’s death, too.. -greenman

Character Matters Posted by Skye on May 18, 2025, 1:10 pm, in reply to ""12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters."" Valued Poster Your first sentence is the give away. You need to replace the word "Democrats" with "Republicans" as it is you/they who are adrift in a sea of nastiness. Your 'side' has normalized lies, hate and nastiness far and above those you accuse of same. Get a clue. It is people like YOU who are dragging this country down into a sea of nastiness.

not exactly sure where to start with this Posted by Trish on May 17, 2025, 10:42 am, in reply to ""12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters."" Admin [1] If your message only works when shouted, you won’t persuade me. I see plenty of ALL CAPS republicans. [2] If you reflexively ignore or reject what I say, you won’t persuade me. Well, that is a two-way street. [3] If you use the F-word and the N-word to describe your adversaries, you won’t persuade me. So all of Trump's name-calling... needs to go away, right? [4] If you fail to condemn political violence in absolute, unalloyed terms, you won’t persuade me. Two words: January 6 [5] If you psychoanalyze your adversaries, you won’t persuade me. How about the experts? Do you believe THEM? [6] If you can’t separate everyday life from political life, you won’t persuade me. Again, DT brings everyday life into his "discussions" all the time. [7] If you traffic in disproven accusations DT dismisses PROVEN information. [8] If your messaging consists of synchronized, transitory memes, you won’t persuade me. How about dropping DT's childish, insulting nicknames for people? [9] If you vilify masses of voters, you won’t persuade me. Oh, I agree, but there's certainly plenty of vilification coming from the Oval Office. [10] If you lack empathy for your adversaries, that will be obvious, and you won’t persuade me. Empathy for a guy talking about grocery prices who has never stepped foot into a store and shopped? He makes broad-sweeping statements about middle America that are anything but empathetic. [11] If you don’t understand your adversaries’ mindset, you won’t persuade me. Sorry, I will never understand racism, the attacks on women's independence and knowledge, the looking down at the little people because they are poor or disabled or challenged. [12] If your nominee can’t persuade your own voters, then you probably can’t persuade me. If your nominee makes grandios statements about landslides and huge crowds, you probably can't persuade me

I think one of Graboyes main points is that the Republicans currently hold Posted by TW on May 19, 2025, 9:47 am, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" Valued Poster the bulk of the power in the federal government and if Democrats want to regain any appreciable share of it, they need to adopt a strategy quite different than what they are currently engaging in. If you click on the link below, you will be taken to the "left-of-center" Persuasion substack site that posted Graboyes' piece. He spoke of this at the beginning of his own Substack article. Here it is: This is a slightly edited version of a post that appeared earlier today at the Persuasion substack. I would characterize Persuasion as a left-of-center newsletter whose authors take their substack’s name very seriously. Not long ago, I wrote a piece that was highly critical of an essay that appeared on their site. In response, its author sent me a gracious message complimenting my piece and thanking me for “civil disagreement.” In our polarized era, such reaction is rare—and deeply appreciated. Today’s piece, “Persuasive Beats Abrasive,” resulted from my followup interaction with that author. This essay doesn’t address what sort of policies might appeal to me in 2028, but rather what sort of rhetoric might catch my ear. If you read the comments section, you'll have a better idea what he intended to convey in his "Persuasion Beats Abrasive" piece. Additionally, you'll witness a fair amount of "civilized discussion". Something that is a rare occurrence these days. https://www.persuasion.community/p/persuasive-beats-abrasive/comments You may even enjoy the contents of the main site: https://www.persuasion.community/

The point by point rebuttal is spot on and effective Posted by Pikes Peak 14115 on May 18, 2025, 10:20 am, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" If Trump's lips are moving, he's lying. If his pen is moving, he's attempting to sign a crime into law. Trump's go to alibis is to blame Biden. His base still believes it. Trump's late night tweets are often all caps yelling. Those tweets are often directed at efforts within our democracy to reel in and control his authoritarian expansion of power. The leftists this and that are to blame, including the corruption of Trump appointed judges who have the audacity to follow the US Constitution instead of ruling in favor of the convicted felon. This list of suggestions to Democrats about how to increase voter support, coming from a republican who claims to dislike trump, but embraces trump policies wholeheartedly, is a classic example of the kind and nature of lies the public not only expects from republicans, and especially MAGA republicans, but is normalizing as business as usual. So the lies don't appear to hurt anyone. What's the harm? The undeniable fact is trump is a liar. A chronic, habitual liar, and no individual, company or country who embraces, normalizes, and establishes policy based on lies either prevails, or lasts. Lies murder. Don't hold your breath for the author's response. You can look away from a painting, but you can't listen away from a symphony

Noted (without much surprise) that TW did not respond. Posted by SJW on May 18, 2025, 10:20 am, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" TW doesn't seem interested in a dialogue. He delivers his mini-screeds and tends to depart.

I don't live on this board. I hit it intermittently. Sometimes I go a week to 10 days Posted by TW on May 19, 2025, 9:04 am, in reply to "Noted (without much surprise) that TW did not respond." Valued Poster without visiting. Sometimes I pop in, take a look, and am gone again for days. I have no problem with dialog whatsoever. I do have more of a preference for polite and civil discussion.

You're here now. Posted by SJW on May 19, 2025, 9:50 am, in reply to "I don't live on this board. I hit it intermittently. Sometimes I go a week to 10 days" Valued Poster Too intimidated to respond NOW?

Good rebuttal! Posted by greenman on May 18, 2025, 9:38 am, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" Valued Poster I have no idea why a Trumpster would pretend he could be ‘persuaded’ to vote Democratic, any more than he could ‘persuade’ me to vote for a traitor. -greenman

Well said and I agree. Posted by Sia on May 17, 2025, 4:46 pm, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" ADMIN

every once in a while... I find the right words Posted by Trish on May 19, 2025, 3:25 pm, in reply to "Well said and I agree." Admin 777 is so much better than I

All about.... Posted by Skye on May 17, 2025, 12:09 pm, in reply to "not exactly sure where to start with this" Valued Poster me me me me me..... I'd rather try to persuade reasonable people. Here's a thought... MAKE AMERICA UNITED AGAIN Imagine an America that is FOR... FREEDOM, JUSTICE, DIVERSITY, KINDNESS, COMPASSION, HONESTY... with Liberty and Justice for ALL UNITED WE STAND

There's your problem. Posted by Skye on May 16, 2025, 12:22 pm, in reply to ""12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters."" Valued Poster It's all about 'winning and losing' to people like you. It's NOT about ideas or what's right or wrong, unless you mean ideas on how to win elections by promoting lies and hatred. For Republicans, it's about dividing and conquering so that they can 'win' elections, grift the gullible and protect themselves... and the "unborn"... certainly not the born, unless you are rich. It's about greed and dishonesty... replacing science, education, health, safety... to give tax cuts to the rich. So the POINT is... the lies, hate and division seems to have worked for the GOP to "win" elections... so why should they change anything or listen to anyone?

For what it's worth.... Posted by Skye on May 16, 2025, 3:10 pm, in reply to "There's your problem." Valued Poster Lies and hate might well be "better received" by liars and haters. If that is who/what you want to associate yourself with, that's your choice. I don't see the "worth" in it myself.

I see Graboyes suggestions as being common sense that is right for all to engage in. Posted by TW on May 16, 2025, 5:06 pm, in reply to "For what it's worth...." Valued Poster You cannot have effective civil discourse without it. Right now, it's the Democrats that are wallowing in the mire. It is not serving them well. Other than maybe from a cathartic standpoint. It will win them very few elections.

Wallowing in the mire? Posted by Pikes Peak 14115 on May 18, 2025, 4:21 pm, in reply to "I see Graboyes suggestions as being common sense that is right for all to engage in." ADMIN I never knew you to write anything even remotely positive about "democrats." You claim to dislike trump. But you positively endorse and support almost every policy the man makes. You can look away from a painting, but you can't listen away from a symphony

No I don't! I think we should continue to support Ukraine. I think many of his statements Posted by TW on May 19, 2025, 9:14 am, in reply to "Wallowing in the mire?" concerning Russia and Ukraine have been ludicrous. I think he and DOGE have been ham-handed about the cuts. I think accepting a Boeing 747 from Qatar would be a terrible choice. I think about half the time he opens his mouth, he says something stupid. I think the tariffs are bad policy as well. Woe is us! Both parties seem to be populated with far too many loser politicians.

I'm not awake yet.... Posted by Skye on May 19, 2025, 9:58 am, in reply to "No I don't! I think we should continue to support Ukraine. I think many of his statements" Valued Poster Okay, so we agree on some things regarding Ukraine and the tariffs being bad policy. But HOW is it or SHOULD it be his "choice" to even accept that kind of gift, or to do the cuts through DOGE/Musk the way they are doing, or to tear down vital government functions and security... to illegally fire people for no just cause, to 'disappear' people with no due process, to threaten judges, universities, media outlets... and the list goes on and on. He is obviously usurping power that does not belong to him, just bypassing Congress and the judiciary illegally. He is doing all KINDS of illegal things and threatening our whole system of democracy and checks and balances... but you only oppose about "half" of what he says or is doing? IMO, you should be out there with the protestors if you want to save our democracy from this vile and illegal regime. The group I am with is called "Indivisable"... it is non-partisan and non violent. They are planning a "No Kings" rally right now for June 14th. You should go!

So.... Posted by Skye on May 19, 2025, 9:30 am, in reply to "No I don't! I think we should continue to support Ukraine. I think many of his statements" Valued Poster You think Putin should just have his way with Ukraine?? That we should support his murderous rampage by backing off and letting it happen, after Russia and the US as well as other European countries agreed to protect and honor Ukraine's sovereignty after they agreed to give up their nuclear weapons? Do you also support Trump's threats to take Greenland, Canada or whatever else he desires with military force 'if necessary'? Is this what you want or admire in a "strong" leader?? Trump is not just stupid. He is a criminal. But you are only opposed to about "half" of what he says??? Do you also think his tariffs are a great idea?

Don't feel so bad. I misread it the first time through also. But was SO SURPRISED that Posted by Sia on May 19, 2025, 11:20 am, in reply to "So...." ADMIN I reread it and realized that I'd misread it. At least you've owned the mistake, so there's that. :-)

Sorry, I misread that.... Posted by Skye on May 19, 2025, 9:33 am, in reply to "So...." Valued Poster I didn't see exclamation point after "don't". Still....

I agree. Thanks for being specific. Posted by Sia on May 19, 2025, 9:24 am, in reply to "No I don't! I think we should continue to support Ukraine. I think many of his statements" ADMIN

Your problem there Posted by greenman on May 17, 2025, 7:22 am, in reply to "I see Graboyes suggestions as being common sense that is right for all to engage in." ..is that Trump has ENDED ‘civil discourse.’ Not only does he never engage in it himself - preferring violently nasty late-night text rants - he doesn’t respect it from others. He takes it as a sign of weakness. He respects only the strong, as his willingness to suck up to world tyrants in Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang, Riyadh and the like amply demonstrates. Secondly, Trump is engaging in a kind of conversion of U.S. democratic processes to neo-fascist one along the lines of a Putin, or at least an Orban. Repress the media, eliminate immigration, confuse the public, harrass real or perceived ‘enemies,’ and play to the mob. Why would I engage in ‘civil discourse’ with a Hitler? Which brings me to Graboyes and his ‘suggestions,’ which seem to revolve around accommodating Trump. ‘Don’t say this about him,’ Graboyes remonstrates, ‘Don’t be mean (‘nasty’ is the Orange Tyrant’s favorite word),’ ‘don’t swear,’ and ‘Don’t use the ‘f(ascist)’ or the ‘n(azi)’ words. Accommodate. Be nice. Maybe he will let us keep some fragment of our democracy!’ Well, screw that. My Uncle fought the Nazis. I don’t accomodate them, I don’t work with them, and I’m not gonna be nice to them. Trump is the ENEMY. And that’s that. This has gone past the point of ‘civility’ - and maybe, ‘elections.’ -greenman

Exactly Posted by Skye on May 17, 2025, 8:37 am, in reply to "Your problem there" And despite TW's 'seeming' objections to Trump, he voted for the guy at least twice and is STILL defending him and his 'policies' while blaming those who DIDN'T vote for Trump for bringing him back, and now wants to lecture them about how to have "civil discourse"?? What a joke. A very bad joke. And this is the best candidate that Republicans could come up with?? A 'strong man' who wants to slap down democracy, the Constitution, the rule of law, and anyone who doesn't bow to him and his overt self-serving corruption? All for the pleasure they get in seeing him mock and slap down "the libs" and "wokeness"?

He’s a SUCCESSFUL candidate Posted by greenman on May 17, 2025, 8:49 am, in reply to "Exactly" Valued Poster ..which is literally all they care about. And they do everything they can to hide that fact…but occasionally it slips out in a cry of triumph. -greenman

I do not expect civil discourse from you… Posted by Skye on May 16, 2025, 10:14 pm, in reply to "I see Graboyes suggestions as being common sense that is right for all to engage in." Valued Poster or your ‘side’… much less effective. You even blame those who didn’t vote for Trump for getting him elected instead of blaming those who voted for him. Either your mind is really that twisted or you aren’t really interested in any kind of honest or civil discourse. So… no thank you to your ‘sage’ advice.

And you can offer NOTHING of value until you admit that Trump Posted by SJW on May 16, 2025, 5:26 pm, in reply to "I see Graboyes suggestions as being common sense that is right for all to engage in." Valued Poster and the toadies that follow him are destroying everything decent and honorable about America. Anyone who does not take a stand explicitly and demonstrably against this administration is a total disgrace.

It is totally about ideas and whose ideas are better or better received. Posted by TW on May 16, 2025, 12:56 pm, in reply to "There's your problem." Valued Poster Graboyes stated that the purpose of this piece was to offer unsolicited advice to those who are failing miserably at the task of persuasion. A politician has to persuade voters to vote for them and their party's platform. You don't tend to win elections by calling the opposition names. You win by having better ideas for government policy. High inflation, open borders, men in women's sports and locker rooms, defund the police, criminals turned loose by liberal prosecutors and AGs all tainted the Democrat brand. Biden failed in his 4 years, and the Democrats offered up nothing new. Their primary campaign strategy "rule" was to offer up vociferous condemnation of Trump, with the promise of another 4 years like the previous 4 years. Only for some unknown reason, an even better 4 more years. It obviously didn't fly. These facts have been covered time and again by a large number of both the left and the right's political pundits. What Graboyes states is plain, simple, and logical. Failure to heed any of his advice will very likely result in future Democrat losses. "If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

I reject Graboyes for obvious reasons. Posted by greenman on May 16, 2025, 1:24 pm, in reply to "It is totally about ideas and whose ideas are better or better received." First, I wouldn’t take ideas about ‘improving the Dems’ from our enemies. Especially when you gave the country Trump. Second, I won’t listen to accusations of ‘lying’ from liars. Third, until the GOP get rid of Trump and everything he stands for, I don’t even consider them loyal Americans. That includes their ‘problems’ with accepting friendship and assistance from Putin, who is the enemy of the Western world. Finally, their lies cost America the election, and guaranteed the re-election of a CONVICTED CRIMINAL, rapist, confidence man and incompetent. YOU are the ones who need to drastically reform your party. FWIW -greenman

Don't blame me! Blame the Democrats for Trump's reelection. Posted by TW on May 16, 2025, 5:03 pm, in reply to "I reject Graboyes for obvious reasons." The fault is largely theirs. The electorate had plenty of reasons to not vote for Harris or any Democrat. I'll list a few: ■ Kamala was Willie Brown's party girl. She's not too smart either. A fairly crappy VP with nothing but greater than 3 years of poor public exposure, and thus a poor contender for POTUS. Apparently, the same people that thought she was as sharp as a tack were also the same ones that thought Biden was as sharp as a tack. ■ Biden's tenure was primarily a disaster, as he was on board with far left policies. Actually, who knows what he was on board with. His handlers with the auto pen may have been running the show. The tell-all books are shedding plenty of light on that despicable subject. ■ The wide open border. Most Americans were against it and still are. Yet, the left continues to come to the aid of even criminal illegal aliens. ■ Expensive and useless DEI idiocy ■ Defund the police foolishness ■ The trans agenda with men in women's sports, locker rooms and restrooms. With surgical and chemical gender manipulation of children. Along with the lying to parents and attacking parents for not being in favor of such lunacy. ■ Criminals turned loose or given extreme leniency by far left DAs and judges. ■ Rampant inflation hurt many from the middle class on down to the poorest of the nation. ■ The massively big lie to all Americans that Biden was fit as a fiddle and as sharp as a tack. The Democrats willingly scuttled their own boat, believing their lies and far left agenda would ultimately find favor with the electorate. As the results now reveal, not too many bought into their gig. Sure Trump stinks. But what helped in a huge way to bring him to power had to stink even worse.

We can blame you for lacking the courage to oppose Trump Posted by SJW on May 18, 2025, 11:23 am, in reply to "Don't blame me! Blame the Democrats for Trump's reelection." Valued Poster Better to have the mediocre than the monstrous

I DO blame you. Posted by greenman on May 16, 2025, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Don't blame me! Blame the Democrats for Trump's reelection." Valued Poster Your kind have been buying this right-wing crapola since Reagan’s time. You push extremist leaders, foolish wars (Iraq, Afghanistan) disrespect for Liberal or black leaders, disrespect for women, etc. And yet you demand respect for your own - for filthy criminals like Trump. Dems messed up in many ways, but we sure didn’t vote for a failure and a RAPIST as President, pal. -greenman

I have a suggestion! Posted by greenman on May 16, 2025, 11:25 am, in reply to ""12 suggestions for Democrats on how they might win back skeptical voters."" Valued Poster Post Graboyes’ right-wing drivel to someone who cares, and think for yourself for a change. Wouldn’t that be better? ps - would you or Republicans take Liberal advice on reforming your neo-fascist Party? Did you after the 2020 elections or after 1/6/21? No. You didn’t. -greenman

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