Religion and Ethics BBS

Religion and Ethics BBS
[ Religion and Ethics BBS ]

Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive

Posted by Mugwump on July 2, 2025, 9:15 am

If the post is not even addressed to you, it's easy to just ignore.

Posted by Ken C on July 4, 2025, 11:02 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

If the post is addressed to you, I understand that's annoying.

People who talk about their religion should say things like "This is why I like my religion ... ".

People should avoid saying things like "This us why you should join my religion ...".

Those are suggestions and not rules".

But it has been numerous times.

Posted by Mugwump on July 6, 2025, 4:27 pm, in reply to "If the post is not even addressed to you, it's easy to just ignore."

Along with condemning language.
I know that.
You know that.
His ugliness knows that.

"People should avoid saying things like "This us why you should join my religion ...".

Posted by Mugwump on July 4, 2025, 2:21 pm, in reply to "If the post is not even addressed to you, it's easy to just ignore."

Just thought I'd quote you.

Is it?

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 4, 2025, 12:34 pm, in reply to "If the post is not even addressed to you, it's easy to just ignore."

Flies are annoying. They don't know any better. We can swat at them and hopefully get rid of them permanently. Humans are suppose to know better then to persistently and endlessly pester. After all, when a child does it, parents (hopefully) correct them. Should we expect less from adults? Does being an adult mean one now gets to do whatever one wants and that only children should behave? Adults are suppose to understand the value of civility and respect. They are suppose to understand the value of 'if you do this for me, I will return the favor and do the same for you'.

There is a difference between being annoying (which we all are from time to time), and being obnoxious. There is a difference between the sharing of ideas, even debates and arguments, and being intolerant, arrogant and judgmental repeatedly. These latter behaviors do not foster discussions, they are detrimental to them. That is counter-productive to a board such as this - unless one likes a free for all message board. Then by all means - have a free for all. But don't complain if you get smashed in the melee.

Anyone can proselytize. It is not by any means confined to Christians (though certain Christian groups have made it part of their practices), or to a specific belief. Have a belief, and one can push it on others, which is what proselytizing really is. I've encountered militant atheists who are just as pushy and unreasonable as some Christians.

Proselytizing is not supportive of the respect and sharing of different beliefs and ideas. It approaches from the premise that the proselytizer is right and those who differ are wrong. If not, then why is one proselytizing? If one follows up proselytizing by being judgmental (if you don't believe as I do, then XYZ will be your fate) makes the matter even worse. The reason is that no matter how right and truthful one believes their faith (or lack thereof) to be, in the end, it is a belief.

If I had to do it again, I would be more than happy to shove another wheel barrel full of fresh steamy manure under the noses of anyone who insists on pushing their beliefs on me after I have said (as I did) repeatedly (for years, I kid you not), thanks but no thanks.

We are all responsible for our behavior. That includes the proselytizing. No one likes (to borrow the phrase from Mugwumps) a pushy car salesman for good reason. Its the approach that is so objectionable. If you want to have your say, that's fine. If you want to push yourself on another, especially with the 'I am right, you are wrong' approach and 'you are going to pay for your beliefs' (and lets be honest, it is a threat), don't complain when you get a less than polite response.

Some people reach their level of tolerance and 'fight fire with fire'. Others, like me, tend to walk away. I've left this board for long periods of time rather than risk sharing my less than polite thoughts. You want respect? Give it - then you have the right ask for it in return. Don't want to give it? Don't be surprised when you are treated in like kind.

Yes!

Posted by observer on July 4, 2025, 2:06 pm, in reply to "Is it?"

No!

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 4, 2025, 8:13 pm, in reply to "Yes!"

Except when YOU do it?

Posted by observe on July 4, 2025, 10:23 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

Read the definition.

convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Posted by Mugwump on July 4, 2025, 10:32 am, in reply to "Except when YOU do it?"

I don't a flying F**k if someone has different religious beliefs and I certainly would never waste time trying to convert them. If you shared my beliefs, I'd try and find some hemlock.

Definition includes belief and opinion. You do it almost exclusively.

Posted by observe on July 4, 2025, 11:18 am, in reply to "convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another."

You offer criticism but no wisdom, disdain, but no praise. You delight in spreading your personal misery. Sad as that is, it is not contagious.

Oops! I have no particular wisdom to offer. But I recognize stupidity

Posted by Mugwump on July 4, 2025, 2:24 pm, in reply to "Definition includes belief and opinion. You do it almost exclusively."

and bigotry when I see it and somoetimes say so.

Posted by Mugwump on July 4, 2025, 2:22 pm, in reply to "Definition includes belief and opinion. You do it almost exclusively."

you know the rest.

Perhaps the problem lies with you

Posted by yome on July 4, 2025, 8:44 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

No one is making you or anyone else read anything posted here.

If it's your desire to read only posts that tickle your fancy, maybe it's best to stick with the other board.

And no, I'm not trying to be ugly, but after 20 years I still can't understand why we haven't become adult enough to resist the temptation to open posts from people we know that we are going to disagree with.

For example, I liked and respected JB as a person, but I hated his post. Therefore, I didn't open his post.

Hmmmm:-)

Posted by GOG on July 6, 2025, 10:00 am, in reply to "Perhaps the problem lies with you "

Completely misses the point.

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 4, 2025, 11:07 am, in reply to "Perhaps the problem lies with you "

First, we are not talking about disagreements, debates, even arguments. I doubt anyone here wants an echo chamber. That provides for a boring board. I also doubt anyone comes here expecting nothing but lollypops, rainbows and roses.

We are also not talking about being completely intolerant, not recognizing that we are all human, that all of us will at times slip up and forget our manners and have our moments.

No one said that religion should not be discussed here, or that certain religions and/or beliefs should not be discussed here. This is a religion and ethics board.

The objection is not the topic, or whether or not posters should be able to disagree with one another, the objection is the manner of approach.

We are discussing repeated and unwanted proselytizing. That is not the simple sharing or exploring of ideas. It is not disagreement and debate per say.

What you are suggesting is that only the reader bears responsibility (and should behave like an adult) because the reader has the option to read or not read, respond or not respond, or just move on - that the writer bears no responsibility for the content of their post or their posting behavior here. That's completely lopsided.

You would not appreciate it if I were to post to you: "I am right, you're wrong and you know it. You are being deliberately ignorant, are denying what you know to be the truth. . . . you should be thinking and believing what I do because I am right and you are wrong", and then finish it up with, "You deserve to be judged for your beliefs, and will be - you'll find out in the end." And then, repeatedly post it - over and over and over again (in various forms).

You, the reader, can by-pass my post. Does that mean that I therefore can post and say anything I want and do it repeatedly? Of course not.

I am responsible for how I respond and you are responsible for what you post and visa-versa. We all have the right to expect a certain level of civility. I have seen posters follow other posters around here, even to the extend of harassing and borderline stalking. I have seen insults, vulgarity, obnoxiousness. (Yea, I know - there are those that get their jollies by being an AH.)

This board will be what we make it. If I don't offer civility to those I disagree with, I have no right to ask for it.

Proselytizing, by its very nature, is not designed to be respectful of different beliefs. Its purpose is to convert. It proceeds from the position "I'm right, you who differ are wrong." It does not take the position, "Well I may be wrong" - if that was the case, why one Earth would one be proselytizing to begin with?

Faith/religion - it's belief. You have the right to believe as you wish - how about respecting other's right to do the same?

No it doesn’t. It makes his point.

Posted by observer on July 4, 2025, 2:07 pm, in reply to "Completely misses the point."

Misses the point!

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 4, 2025, 8:15 pm, in reply to "No it doesn’t. It makes his point."

Isn't proselytizing..

Posted by mark on July 3, 2025, 2:42 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

...by its very nature unsolicited?

As in junk political mail!!

Posted by GOG on July 3, 2025, 9:13 am, in reply to "Isn't proselytizing.."

And the incessant political pleadings.

Try very hard to read ALL words.in a sentence.

Posted by Mugwump on July 3, 2025, 6:23 am, in reply to "Isn't proselytizing.."

Well..

Posted by mark on July 3, 2025, 6:25 am, in reply to "Try very hard to read ALL words.in a sentence."

..unsolicited was superfluous.

Those

Posted by Mugwump on July 3, 2025, 9:30 am, in reply to "Well.."

who think a one-word subject line merits a response suffer from hubris

Oh the...

Posted by mark on July 3, 2025, 12:05 pm, in reply to "Those"

...irony.

Imitation

Posted by Mugwump on July 3, 2025, 12:19 pm, in reply to "Oh the..."

is the sincerest form of trying to tell yu that you're an annoying little A.H.

Bird in the hand…

Posted by mark on July 4, 2025, 4:14 am, in reply to "Imitation"

…gathers no moss.

It can be.

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 2, 2025, 11:00 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

I don't recall anyone being pleased by that knock on the door from the JW. I viewed it as an entry into private property without invitation and without reasonable cause, a disruption of my private life at home during family time, and an uninvited invasion of my private beliefs. I always sent the JW packing and eventually found a way to stop those unwanted visits without being rude or verbally abusive. (I still thank my horse for her help!!)

On this board I scroll on by (most of the time) - its easy to do and repeatedly ignoring someone sends a strong message (assuming they are even paying attention). If I am addressed directly, that's a different matter.

Proselytizing is an attempt to convert. It is not the same as simple conversation or the sharing of ideas. (I know you know this, I am just explaining my reasoning.) To do so, one takes the position that their beliefs are correct/superior and the other person's beliefs are wrong/inferior. They key word here is 'belief'. I have no problem with someone deciding for themselves what their beliefs are, but I have loads of problems when someone persistently tells me what I should be believing especially doing so when uninvited. It shows disrespect for my right to hold my own beliefs, disrespect for my right to be left in peace, and there is a certain arrogance attached with the I'm right, you're wrong approach.

And I refuse to respond to AI when I identify it.

AI us troubling and its getting worse

Posted by Trish on July 2, 2025, 5:29 pm, in reply to "It can be."

some systems are found "tilting" the information they spew. Others have the wrong information. Everywhere I look there's an ad saying, let AI write for you (god those piss me off).

I take great pride in never using AI with my clients or publishers.

"Don't use it, you lose it."

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 2, 2025, 7:06 pm, in reply to "AI us troubling and its getting worse"

My position on using AI instead of writing for oneself: Communicating, writing, the ability to take complex thoughts and express them clearly, proper word choice, etc. - these are skills that take time to develop and can be improved with continued use. The ability of humans to write, to express their thoughts in words is a precious ability/skill. I for one would never want to relinquish it in any way to, of all things, AI (of course excluding those who have impairments that require assistance to communicate).

AI is very impersonal, reduces human contact even further (as if we don't have enough of that already), and is as lazy as all when one can write for oneself.

Agree

Posted by GOG on July 3, 2025, 9:14 am, in reply to ""Don't use it, you lose it.""

An AI won't sit and struggle over a word or phrase

Posted by trish on July 3, 2025, 5:23 am, in reply to ""Don't use it, you lose it.""

Self-editing is a bear, but there are things about writing you need to remember.

- don't use passive language
- don't use the same word too close to each other
- use rich, descriptive language
- footnote, footnote, footnote

If I'm not sure, I read a segment out loud.

Does it take more time? Yes, but my name is going on that book so I better be damn sure I can stand behind it.

Our souls require the struggle. Otherwise we wither and die.

Posted by GOG on July 3, 2025, 9:04 am, in reply to "An AI won't sit and struggle over a word or phrase"

Meritocracy should not be handed over to a soulless artificial silicon alien intelligence.

Campaign ads, anyone?

Posted by GOG on July 2, 2025, 1:06 pm, in reply to "It can be."

Two JW ladies came to my open front door. The screen door was closed. I was sitting at the kitchen table butt naked.. Fortunately the table top masqueraded my junk. I simply said “I would come to the door but I’m wearing no clothing.” They scurried away. Another time as they approached I said “I’m not redeemable”. A lie of course, and as such doesn’t endear me to Jesus nor the Ten Commandments.

My mare was my savior. . . .

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 2, 2025, 4:04 pm, in reply to "Campaign ads, anyone?"

from the JW that is.

It was a hot, humid, airless summer day - I was cleaning out her stall. We owned a hobby farm downstate years ago.

Down the winding drive to my barn came the JW. I stuck my head out the barn door and being cranky from the heat became instantly annoyed. Well I would have been annoyed anyway but. . .

They wanted to talk religion but I wanted to talk . . . manure - how one can tell by the characteristics of the manure how well a horse was digesting their meals and if their teeth needed floating or not. I was even so kind as to bring out a wheel barrel full of fresh samples.

They bid me a rather abrupt farewell. Never saw them again.

Faith, hope, and charity also refers to being respectful.

Posted by GOG on July 3, 2025, 9:10 am, in reply to "My mare was my savior. . . . "

I’ve never been rude to a visit. Dogma is the lesser. The Word is the point.

Re: It can be.

Posted by Mugwump on July 2, 2025, 11:16 am, in reply to "It can be."

We have one source of incessant repetitive drum-beating here and just seeing the name turns my stomach. Ken even put up a post to call attention to the offender, but that only worked for a couple of months. My post today went up out of frustration.
BTW, while I'm an ex-pat (soon [less than a month] to be a dual citizen, my roots are in the Adirondacks. What's your region?

I hear ya!

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 2, 2025, 11:43 am, in reply to "Re: It can be."

I find the use of AI particularly odd from someone who is a published writer.

Lake George - beautiful lake though the western shore is over developed and very commerical. But the area economy is supported to a large degree by vacationers. Ya take the good with the bad I guess.

We moved here years ago. Would never go back to northern NJ, that is unless forced by circumstance.

The 'Dacks in the fall are beautiful . . . all those awesome colors.

Dual citizen? What's the country of your choice, if you don't mind my asking. Our older daughter would love to give Ireland a try - Denmark interests me (we have roots in both countries.) I told them if they were to move to distant lands hubbie & I would follow. Family is the most important to us - and I am so heart broken over the direction the US has been moving in. The state of the healthcare system is an absolute disgrace. I am equally disgusted over my husband being denied his retirement benefits from the USN - a 20 year vet and denied benefits due to (off all things) a signature on a document. (Navy: We can't find those records - well, they are no longer kept there, they were sent elsewhere, and there was a fire . . . . OMG!!!)

But for my age I would flee Babylon.

Posted by GOG on July 3, 2025, 9:19 am, in reply to "I hear ya!"

“Come out of her My people…..”.

Re: I hear ya!

Posted by Mugwump on July 2, 2025, 1:57 pm, in reply to "I hear ya!"

Lake George is beautiful (not Lake George Village). I'm originally out of Glens Falls (how far can you throw a stone?). I know Pilot Knob/Fort Ann quite well
If I mention where I live assumptions will be made that I'd rather avoid. Please forgive the secrecy. I provide as little pertinent information as possible when on line & use a connection provided by my management group.

My family and I vacationed

Posted by Dancing Digits on July 2, 2025, 4:39 pm, in reply to "Re: I hear ya!"

when I was a kid on Dunham's Bay. A person could stroll from the cabins down to the water's edge. No more - its built up and the cabins are really run down and no longer used.

Lake George Village is crowded & very touristy - many of the homes behind Canada Street are rundown. The east shore of the lake still has hiking, camping, etc.

Fortunately I live close enough to the lake to get to her with a short car trip and enjoy her, but far enough away that its peaceful here.

My daughters at one time lived in the Lake Placid area - so many of the towns up there are economically depressed but the lack of industry has helped to keep the area in its natural state.

No worries about protecting your privacy. As there are plenty of nice people out there, there are also too many of not so nice.

Define proselytizing

Posted by BornToFarm on July 2, 2025, 9:36 am, in reply to "Unsolicited and repeated proselytizing is rude and offensive"

BTW, I might ask you to define unsolicited and repeated, IOW

Posted by Mugwump on July 3, 2025, 3:54 pm, in reply to "Define proselytizing"

incessant

Incessant is a good word

Posted by trish on July 4, 2025, 3:00 am, in reply to "BTW, I might ask you to define unsolicited and repeated, IOW"

I recall several situations in which the subject of salvation came up.

- a party
- the airport
- a store

The conversation began pleasantly enough, but when I said I wasn't interested or no, thank you, they just KEPT GOING. Some became angry with their delivery.

I wasn't rude in my reply, but it took a while to get rid of that person (thank god for my flight)

To me, no means no.

That is the point, isn't it?

Posted by Mugwump on July 4, 2025, 4:16 am, in reply to "Incessant is a good word"

Is there anyone on this board who has had repeated exposure to the same sales pitch? It's not as if someone asked for an explanation of another's set of beliefs or as though a likely respoonse would be "Oh, I've never heard that before"
It's more like having someone shouting "Six for only three dollars OR ELSE" in their ear every other day.

Let me see if I've got this right..

Posted by BornToFarm on July 3, 2025, 5:45 pm, in reply to "BTW, I might ask you to define unsolicited and repeated, IOW"

You want me to define the terms you are using in your statement???

Those are clear terms and describe the specific conditions involved.

Posted by Mugwump on July 3, 2025, 6:28 pm, in reply to "Let me see if I've got this right.."

Which is the point of what I said in the first place.

stating-Jesus-saves-us-from-sin..

Posted by scott on July 3, 2025, 7:24 am, in reply to "Define proselytizing"

on-a-religion-board-of-all-places.

Try Webster or any standard dictionary.

Posted by Mugwump on July 2, 2025, 10:15 am, in reply to "Define proselytizing"

Please don't be offended. Your views or testimony, whenever offered, are always modest and never as incessant as those of a car salesman.